Hi Mike,

Although this will come across as political correctness... I bristle at being labeled 'a liberal'...or a 'conservative' or whatever. If there is any 'us' and 'them' I think it's more along the lines of 'moderates' vs. 'not moderates'... with 'moderates' being the majority. Better yet... just skip the labels. I'm not promoting holding hands and singing "Kumbaya"... just an observation that reading replies in forums that take unnecessary swipes at people (ironically possibly insulting people you may want to work with in this particular case) is not productive.

BTW... everyone... this is not an invitation of digressing into a North Andover Liberal vs. Conservative discussion. Please take that somewhere else.

Returning to the core of this topic... it sounds like the ball is in the School System's (administration and School Committee) court. Anyone have any facts of the current state? I know that we have three SC members that occasionally frequent this forum... any updates? Any timeline for information? What are the options in place based on potential outcomes and the timeline? Yes... we have information on school choice... but what are the 'real' options that people will have to evaluate vs. policy outlines. Are there any SC or other meetings being set up to communicate this information?

I don't mind people (town/school system) thinking things through... but I do think people need to be kept 'in the loop' and know that issues are being actively addressed and have some idea of when to expect some communications/instructions.

Thanks,

Don

Dear Mike,

I’ll keep this very brief, because I’m far more inclined to hang out with my family today than I am to hanging out with my keyboard!

You’re mistaken when you characterize either myself or all NAU supporters as liberals. I find myself agreeing with you and Chuck more frequently than you give me credit for. In actuality, I’m registered as non-committed to give me flexibility, but I usually vote republican [I’ll be voting for McCain].

I do not share many of your thoughts on our school system. I think we have very complex problems that cannot be brought down to simple terms or simple fixes.

You did not answer my question about the “minor changes”. Please specify what minor changes you’d like to see. What do you think could or should have been done differently educationally, not politically? As to non-performing curriculum, Chuck and NATA have been part of the problem, continually putting obstacles in the way of adopting curriculum for elementary ELA.

Tell me specifically what you would do differently. Show me any Massachusetts municipality not struggling right now. I spent three hours in Andover last night, a high-performing community generally recognized as managing their town well. They’re very worried too.

You are right, it’s getting more difficult to live up to the politically-enforced standards every year. But you are trying to fight national-level battles at the local level. You are blaming the passengers, rather than the people holding the reins. When was the last time we saw Senator Kerry or Senator Kennedy in North Andover or the Merrimack Valley? Congressman Tierney was here in the fall – I don’t recall seeing you in the room – and he was very willing to talk about national achievements irrelevant to our local difficulties.

As to being seriously crushed in the election, if you had found your way to the keyboard during the election process you would have had a better chance. And you should have taken advantage of the opportunity to meet with NAU when we invited you to. Above all else, we try to be fair. We’re not about telling people what to think – we’re interested in providing accurate information and trusting that people can sift through the information and decide the truth for themselves.

Off to summer fun! --Sandy Gleed

QUOTE:
'I bristle at being labeled 'a liberal'...or a 'conservative' or whatever.
If there is any 'us' and 'them' I think it's more along the lines of 'moderates' vs. 'not moderates'...
with 'moderates' being the majority. Better yet... just skip the labels.' - DRomano 7/9/08

QUOTE:
You’re mistaken when you characterize either myself or all NAU supporters as liberals.
I find myself agreeing with you and Chuck more frequently than you give me credit for.
In actuality, I’m registered as non-committed to give me flexibility, but I usually
vote republican [I’ll be voting for McCain]. - SGleed 7/9/08

Sandy and Don,

I may vote for McCain but I'll certainly 'hold my nose' (as McCain's Mom suggested) and perhaps retreat to the desert to atone.

I apologize for using the apparently strident term 'liberal supporters' in my previous post. 'Liberal' is a relative concept and if you perceive it as an insult that is not my intention. NAU is a big tent after all. Don seems to be in the 'moderate majority' (Hear me roar!) and Sandy is in the conservative wing.

However, somebody voted for the 'not to be labeled with the "L" word' state reps and school committee members over the years that have given us the current situation. I doubt those voters could be classified as conservative Republicans (and it is questionable aas to how many such people actually exist.)

The school committee members are perfectly silent on the Thomson issue on this board. I agree with Don that even a 'We're working on it...' post would be appreciated.

I stand by my belief that past supporters (of whatever political or philosophical persuasion) of the current school committee regime and more importantly Thomson parents must protest en masse if anything is to change.
Do you favor reevaluating use of the Lesley non-curriculum currently used at Thomson? In Sandy's previous post it sounded like you thought this teaching system was not working? Is that a mischaracterization?
Is this same method / technique / non-curriculum used at all other elementary schools in North Andover? Is this part of the 'standardization' of curriculum that is hoped to help performance in the Middle School?
This reevaluation of a curriculum is a very major undertaking and, presuming changes are recommended, a multi-year process to implement. It won't help Thomson in 2009.

I agree there are very significant management problems at Thomson as there have been for years.

Politics is the heart of the matter and money problems (as always) will be the next big issue.

"You did not answer my question about the “minor changes”. Please specify what minor changes you’d like to see. What do you think could or should have been done differently educationally, not politically? As to non-performing curriculum, Chuck and NATA have been part of the problem, continually putting obstacles in the way of adopting curriculum for elementary ELA."

I happen to be a big fan of Chuck's work on the changes to a more rigorous elementary math program. I also understand he was against the new science program that was more expensive and not as "good" as the alternative (as Ralph Wilbur thoroughly pointed out in the Valley Patriot - I haven't seen anyone defend the new program in writing).

I'm confident that any obstacles he may be putting in the way of ELA curriculum involve making the curriculum more rigorous.

Best wishes,
ahbgone

Dear Ahbgone,

There is no elementary ELA curriculum. None. Town-wide.

Chuck isn't supporting rigor for something that doesn't exist. He's been very vocal about math and science but mostly silent about ELA. And it's the ELA scores that are causing problems for Thomson right now.

There are teaching techniques [lesley collaborative training] growing obsolete as each year passes and there are supplementary resources assembled by individual teachers that are specific to each school, not necessarily the entire district. That's a major problem when the students hit 6th grade. They are not all on the same page [no pun intended].

We have a science curriculum one year old. We have a math curriculum that's just a couple years old. We have no ELA nor Social Studies curriculum.

We have students required to pass mcas tests with questions regarding content they've never even seen.

Is it a surprise that some Thomson students are struggling with writing and reading? Shouldn't be.

Purchasing new curriculum and training teachers to use it costs money and takes time. Chuck has been very vocal on high standards, and I have always applauded him for that and he knows that. But it's the school committee's job to see that the School Department has the tools to get the job done. Without curriculum, high standards - even passing scores - is a huge reach, regardless of which school your child attends.

We can't even restore the elementary librarians, let alone take care of our curriculum needs.

Sincerely,
Sandy Gleed

Sandy,

Why don't we have curricula for ELA or Social Studies? Chuck's been relegated to comic relief the last few years. The non-Chuck group have always controlled the committee; why haven't they acted (successfully I mean)? Have we never had curricula in these areas? (Please tell we did but just don't use them anymore. It doesn't seem possible to run a school system without them.)

Mike

Sandy Gleed wrote, "As to non-performing curriculum, Chuck and NATA have been part of the problem, continually putting obstacles in the way of adopting curriculum for elementary ELA."

I challenge you to support this statement with facts. I have ALWAYS declared reading/writing (Oh, sorry, ELA) to be the NUMBER ONE PRIORITY of our elementary schools AND I have always supported any curriculum improvement within the budget that would further academic achievement in this area. As far as I know NATA has never taken any position on any specific ELA curriculum, but has always shared the sentiment that ELA was a Number ONE priority.

I place math as the NUMBER TWO priority in the elementary grades and led the fight to adopt a decent math curriculum -- which we now have (not the best, I preferred Singapore Math, but still a substantial improvement over TERC.)

While I consider science to be of lesser importance in the elementary grades I fought to get a better and more balanced curriculum than the FOSS materials which are vary shallow on substance [Houghton Mifflin was clearly better], which encourage a lot of "busy time" in the classroom, and which hinder parental involvement (no real textbooks).

Since this is the season for political apologies and I will commit to accepting yours with my usual grace and charm.

I'm not so sure about Ted (Mr. NATA), but I have always found him to be exceptionally forgiving.

Chuck

Sorry Chuck, no apology extended. My opinions are based on what I’ve experienced in nearly three decades of living in North Andover, nearly two decades of which I’ve spent as a homeowner attending meetings long before you moved to town, and as a parent of children who have actually attended the schools we’re talking about. You are entitled to disagree with me, and I’m always ok with that. I credit readers with the ability to discern when comments are sincere and made to illuminate an issue, not to further an agenda.

If I had the time that you and Mike have, I would dig out the details [what do you guys do all day besides this stuff??]. But I’m not an elected official, I don’t get paid $5,000 for that responsibility, I do this on my own time for free. I’ll leave it at saying that not once in all these years when I have spoken to you and received emails from you about improving educational standards do I recall you ever mentioning ELA…it was always in the context of math and science. And ALL of the school committee members – not just you – spent far too little time, two years in a row, discussing the impact and consequences when the elementary principals got up and said that our kids can’t write at the level they should and it’s reflected in their mcas scores.

We’ve moved off topic again; let’s move back to the issues at Thomson.

Please explain for Mike why we have no ELA or social studies curriculum. And please tell us what you are doing to persuade your fellow committee members and Dr. Marini that holding a school committee meeting as soon as possible would be in the best interests of the elementary parents [besides initiating these postings]. I have tried my best on my end. I understand that a workshop meeting has been scheduled for July 30th in the High School library. Workshop meetings do not allow public comment and are not always televised. And it is not at all clear that the school choice issue will be discussed.

Mike did a good job getting the school choice discussion topic underway on our website, but I think we’ve exhausted the topic until there’s factual information directly from the School Committee or the School Administration.

Sincerely,
Sandy Gleed

At least Chuck responded. Why can't Whidden, Allen, Limpert or Nobile reply?

I'd like to know which school committee members (i.e. leadership) are on the 'Thomson AYP Committee'.

We've even (albiet briefly) heard from former school committee member, Bill Kelly.

Hello Everyone,

I've had a chance to read through the comments and postings and here's a summary to the situation at hand.

There are three main issues that need to be addressed:
1. Pending Annual Yearly Progress (AYP) results for Thomson Elementary School, and related urgent needs at that school in particular.
2. Need for greater communications between the School Committee (SC), the School Administration (SA), and North Andover residents.
3. A coordinated curriculum between the elementary schools, with a priority need in ELA.

Here is a proposal that formulates an action plan to address those needs listed above.

For issue #1, AYPs: The SC and SA will address next month when the AYP results are given. I call on these two groups to do the right thing, do what's possible, and do what's prudent given the current state of affairs. Longer term priorities will need to be articulated, but the urgency of the AYPs and school choice must first be addressed, before discussing the specific longer term strategies. Focus must remain at the urgent and immediate need. (Who is the responsible person for AYPs and can get semi-annual updates?)

For issue #2, Communications: At one point, one SC member did offer to begin a "blog", detailing things like meeting items discussed, action items, and updates. I think this is an excellent idea. I'm sure there are some policy/procedures that need to be worked through by the SC before something like that this can happen, e.g. meeting minutes are voted upon prior to entering them into the record. But in an informal way, I'm certain that at some level, information can be disseminated through a communication channel such as a “blog”, after each SC meeting.

For issue#3, ELA: Beginning with the 2008-2009 school year, make it a funded priority to evaluate and implement a coordinated ELA curriculum across all five elementary schools. As part of that, hire at least three (3) elementary school librarians with the following assignments: one position shared between Kittridge and Atkinson, one between Sargent and Franklin, and one full time at the elementary school where I understand the need is greatest, Thomson. (For those of you who are not aware of this, allow me to briefly state that a school librarian is a teaching position which compliments the subject curriculums being taught in the classrooms. A school librarian is much more than a book sign in/out person. But that is for a different discussion and not here.)

With these three issues detailed and a suggested action plan proposed, who is willing to step up and commit to one or more of these three areas?

Chuck O., are you willing to commit, at some level, to instituting more significant communication channels, both formal and informal, between the SC and the N.A. residents, or at least be the point person responsible? This would be a communication channel, not a venue for opinions and commentary. It would be for facts, decisions, findings, action items, etc. only.

Mike Q., are you willing to commit to being the community point person on providing facts and information, on the ELA curriculum development at the elementary schools? It is not being suggested that this be a place for opinions and commentary, as that belongs elsewhere. But are you willing to provide a public service in communicating objective facts in this area?

Myself? I am committed in several keys ways. Although it is too early to announce anything, look forward to reading some good news in one or more of these three areas.

While I think this forum is useful, I also think its naturally limiting as a public debate channel. I request at least a response to the ideas above, keeping in mind that face-to-face dialogs are required to make constructive and measurable steps forward.

I hope that both active readers and casual ones find this posting both informative and helpful. I am open to other ideas and suggestions, but would like to keep them focused to the three listed in this post.

Sincerely,
Michael Reed

My Dear Sandy,

Let me remind you again of your complaint, "As to non-performing curriculum, Chuck and NATA have been part of the problem, continually putting obstacles in the way of adopting curriculum for elementary ELA." [Emphasis added]

I asked for you to justify this statement or apologize.

You answered, "I’ll leave it at saying that not once in all these years when I have spoken to you and received emails from you about improving educational standards do I recall you ever mentioning ELA … it was always in the context of math and science."

This defends claiming that I was "continually putting obstacles in the way of adopting curriculum for elementary ELA"??? Obstacles? WHAT OBSTACLES?? Continually??? When????

You go further and state that, "And ALL of the school committee members – not just you – spent far too little time, two years in a row, discussing the impact and consequences when the elementary principals got up and said that our kids can’t write at the level they should and it’s reflected in their mcas scores."

Wow! I guess that is why you singled out "Chuck and NATA" for "continually putting obstacles in the way of adopting curriculum for elementary ELA"!

Have I focused more on math than ELA? Guilty. I have more personal knowledge of math than ELA and I can only fight so many battles. Science? No, you just have strong recollections of the science debate that was very heated because I didn't want to see us make a wrong turn, which, unfortunately, we did.

I have spent MUCH more time reviewing curricula and textbooks than any school committee member I have been associated with. I have taken home all the pilotted elementary math texts and read them (plus TERC). What other mebmer did this [WOMDT]? Ditto the elementary science texts. WOMDT? Ditto the HS math texts recently adopted. WOMDT? Ditto the Leslie Literacy textbooks. WOMDT? Ditto the materials on the recently proposed ELA initiative (PLUS I was the only member of the Committee who insisted that this initiative be briefed to the SC]. WOMDT? Ditto the MS & HS Social Study texts. WOMDT?

Did I mention that I have taken the time to sit in on classes in the HS AND MS to assess for myself the level of these courses? [Note: With only one exception, the classes were A+ ... EXCELLENT] Before you complain that I didn't do this in the elementary grades, I confess. I felt my presence would distract the kids and make the teachers particularly uncomfortable (the MS & HS teachers were uncomfortable enough). BTW .... I'm not aware that any other SC member has attended any such classes ... so how do I get selected as the enemy of good curriculum?

Did I mention that I have read EVERY year since I have been a member to 2nd grade classes at the Franklin School and once at the Thomson School (the other invites I had at the Thomson School had conflicts I couldn't avoid).

I am the only member who has fought to have the SC fulfill its responsibility to REVIEW and APPROVE all new school textbooks/curricula. The SC has either sided with the administration who said "It is none of the Committee's business" OR they have reluctantly agreed to vote BUT, even in the later case, they just rubber stamped the admin/teacher's recommendations. In my opinion they have abdicated their responsibility to the community and to our students by not actively assessing, for themselves and for the community, these textbook/curriculum changes.

None of this details the active role I have taken behind the scenes in these matters. I have routinely supported putting more phonics instruction in the classroom (private discussions with all Superintendents, Binkley, Bergeron, and Hutch) and I have even written articles discussing this need and the failure of "whole word" instruction. I recently pleaded with Hutch to add REAL science textbooks for the 5th grade to supplement FOSS and said that I would actively support finding the money for it. If you really cared about our elementary students getting at least one year of solid science instruction, you could lobby Hutch and the other SC members to make this happen.

So how do you justify singling me out as an OBSTRUCTIONIST when it comes to improving curriculum?

As someone said, "You can make up your own opinion, but not your own facts."

You belittle "expectations and high standards," but the fact is that a competent teacher can get good results from students despite a poor curriculum if they set the right expectations and high standards (in some cases deviating from the bad curriculum to do so). Many of our very good elementary teachers did this with TERC and I have always given you credit for pushing Sunshine Math (resisted, as you know, by some administrators).

Finally, I find it VERY ODD that on a SC with a 4-1 Liberal super-majority, it is the single libertarian/conservative who is to blame for the school failings. The 4 status-quo liberals can pass any policy they want and support any re-arrangement of the budget they want. But the failures are my fault?? Only George Orwell would be able to explain such a ridiculous allegation.

Let me see if I understand this. ELA is the most important mission of our elementary schools. A good ELA curriculum is the most important ingredient for good ELA outcomes. We have over $35 million to spend. You have 4 votes ... but the ELA curriculum improvements you think we need is not funded?????

Well, maybe you are half right. Let's blame NATA.

Chuck Ormsby, Obstructionist

Michael,

You wrote, "Chuck O., are you willing to commit, at some level, to instituting more significant communication channels, both formal and informal, between the SC and the N.A. residents, or at least be the point person responsible? This would be a communication channel, not a venue for opinions and commentary. It would be for facts, decisions, findings, action items, etc. only."

We have public "open" meetings that are televised (over and over) and minutes that are recorded and published (if they are not on the web already, I would be glad to support that) ... not to mention reporting in TVP, NAC & ET.

I'm sorry to report that, if you want to know what is going on, you need to tune in. I was tuned out of local issues up until Spring 2002 when some silly people proposed a $10 million operational override to be followed by another $5 million override a few years later. So, guess what ... I tuned in.

I'm not going to spend more of my time, that clearly should be spent putting better science and phonics in our elementary schools, spoon feeding those who are unwilling to tune in to the highly available information you seek. That being said, I am a vocal and ardent supporter of the public's right to know. I even proposed that ALL SC e-mails (between SC members and or between SC members and admin) be made available on the web. This was several years ago, so current members were not responsible for denying this suggestion. As youi might imagine, it got very little ... actually no ... support.

If you think this is needed, feel free to champion it.

Chuck

Michael,

I volunteer to research and then compare and contrast the ELA curricula when they are proposed by the school committee. I will most rigorously give my opinions and commentary as to their relative merits. I look forward to the school committee debates on the merits of these proposed curricula.

I hope you encourage the non-Chuck school committee members to participate and maybe put it on their agenda.

I'm curious as to your analysis of 'For issue #1, AYPs: The SC and SA will address next month when the AYP results are given. I call on these two groups to do the right thing, do what's possible, and do what's prudent given the current state of affairs.'

This implies you think the SC and SA have not done the right thing in the past, done what's possible, or been prudent given the current state of affairs.

Do you agree with Sandy that long-standing lack of leadership is a core problem here?

Mike

I am “wicked” liberal – label me all you want. I support neighborhood schools, local control, teacher collaboration and decision-making for curriculum and teaching to strengths of individual students.

When Harry Harutunian was here, we talked about meetings of all grade level teachers from town and curriculum committees for all major areas. Whatever else Harry did or failed to do, this initiative that could be implemented any time by any admin. As Mike Q. said, it is a multi-year process, and there is no reason to delay its start.

As far as I can see, the Leslie collaborative technique/method has been largely dismissed from the primary and elementary classrooms at Thomson. Given the admin focused standardization of education, I am not aware of administrative overview of this change nor have parents been informed of changing priorities.

Quoting Mike Quinlan: “Is this same method / technique / non-curriculum used at all other elementary schools in North Andover? Is this part of the 'standardization' of curriculum that is hoped to help performance in the Middle School?” Mike, in my opinion, this lack of knowledge of our schools is the reason you were crushed in the SC election, not a political liberal leaning.

A new spelling and language approach, “Fundations” was piloted at Thomson this year, emphasizing spelling rules. It was implemented mid-year, and replaced the spelling program included with our new math curriculum. Will students who began the program in mid second grade complete the program in third grade? It would have been great to offer a parent ed session on the goals of the new program to bring parents on board. I heard it will be used district wide in the primary grades next year. Is this true? I hope parent ed sessions will be implemented with all new curriculums. This again is an important admin function, to bring teachers and parents together for the benefit of children.

As for Math: I liked TERC for the primary grade levels. It was hands-on, object manipulative and discovery focused. We know that learning by doing is the most effective teaching model. I am disappointed at the “worksheet” approach of the new curriculum. At the upper elementary I find the new curriculum better, as the students at this level are prepared for manipulation of symbols. Any curriculm needs to be adjusted by classroom teachers to address the holes in the curriculum and specific needs of the students on a given class.

I'm not going to try to distill out the multiple topics in this one topic... but if participants here have a specific interest in any of them (curriculum, communications, etc) I'd suggest starting a new topic so each topic can be more focused.

This one should be about the specific issue of Thomson AYP and the potential for school choice.